I will ALWAYS stand for the National Anthem.

Discussion in 'Sports Chat' started by Taliasen, Sep 25, 2017.

  1. Taliasen

    Taliasen Collecting Rickey Henderson and Sean Casey. Moderator

    OK, I get it and completely agree 100% that people have the freedom to choose to stand or not or the National Anthem. Personally I find it very rude to NOT do so though when there are service personnel on the field directly in front you. I have the freedom to choose to give my seat to a pregnant woman or elderly person, or not. My freedom, my choice. Again I personally just feel that it is rude not to and that it is the polite and respectful thing to do. I would take it one step further though. While you can not impose a definition of individual freedoms, owners CAN impose definitions of individual job functions. It is my choice and individual freedom to show up in jeans, ignore clients, or not even show up to work at all. There are consequences for my actions and choice of my individual freedoms however. Anyone one of those freedoms could get me suspended without pay or terminated. Just put in the contracts that it is a required function of the job to be on the field and participate as an entire team, in the pregame ceremonies as detailed by the company, in the best practice that reflects the values and mission of the company that you are representing. A failure to follow your job description will result in disciplinary actions. Players have the freedom to choose to miss or be late for practice, and they know the penalties of those choices. players have the freedom to endorse products not affiliated with the NFL (Vitamin Water VS Gatorade), players have the freedom to choose to not participate in post game press conferences or to do so NOT in team approved dress attire. Heck, players have the freedom to choose to use PEDs including Schedule one ILLEGAL drugs, and know the fines and penalties associated with choosing to participate in those individual freedoms. So why is it OK to choose the freedom to use illegal drugs and ignore the media, (which both can cast a negative light on your company/employer) but companies are not willing to set forth best practices and company policies regarding pregame activities?
     
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  2. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD Insert Cool Title Moderator

    I think this is a very complicated manner...but I will try and explain my personal thoughts and opinions on it while being as politically neutral as I can. I personally think that overly political statements on forums can lead to major problems and would prefer that we avoid such situations if at all possible.

    Here are my thoughts.

    First, my personal opinion is that one should stand when the national anthem is played. My father is a highly decorated combat veteran as was his dad. I was raised in a family that respects the flag and believes that respect should be shown. My father has told me several times recently that if he was an owner he would fire the players doing this. He is also someone who is very tired of the "for the veterans" drum that everyone loves to beat. He feels that serving in the military is a job...just like any other job. It's a noble one and at times dangerous but has expressed to me many times that constant "honoring" of veterans (especially non-combat veterans) at every turn is unnecessary and is mostly done to make the people doing the honoring feel good for themselves. I think he is probably right to a certain degree.

    Needless to say, my father has influenced a lot of my thoughts on this situation. As a result I don't have this drive to constantly need to publicly "honor the troops" and feel that making such a statement is simply done to pat ourselves on the back. I find it disheartening that not everyone feels like they should stand.

    That said, we live in a wonderful land. A land that gives us freedom to express our beliefs and do what we think is right provided it doesn't harm others. It is true that many people have fought and died for that right (and to protect that right) and for that I am grateful. Part of the way I express my love and respect for this country is I stand when the national anthem is played. I love this country.

    But, part of being free is being allowed to express your beliefs. If that means you want to peacefully protest what you see as an injustice than that is your right. If the manner in which you choose to protest is to publicly not stand during the national anthem...that is your right. To some this is offensive...but if those that are offended force their beliefs on the protestors...aren't we crippling the very freedom that we claim to hold so dear?

    I have seen many times that the the league and the owners could force them to do it as part of their job. That the First Amendment does not allow an employee freedom to not do their job...and that is correct. But, I see two flaws in this argument. One...their job is still getting done. Their protest is not affecting their ability to do their job. Two...and probably more importantly...the NFL management and the owners are standing behind their players. They believe in their players right to peacefully protest.

    Why do they believe in it...it could be a few reasons. They might (and probably do) believe in those very same freedoms. They might not necessarily believe that they are doing it in the most palatable way...but they believe it is their right (as do I). They also are running a business and they depend on their players. They depend on team unity and the last thing they want to do is drive a wedge between their players.

    This issue has been going on since early last year...but only in the last week did it suddenly blow up into a far bigger issue. The reason for that is simple...and obvious. It blew up because of President Trump. For whatever reason, he felt the need to lash out at various athletes on this issue and has provided a spark that set off a huge issue. Independent of my own political views...I am deeply disturbed that our President thinks that is an appropriate use of his time. I would think that he would have better things to do than to get into a Twitter war with athletes. But, perhaps I am wrong.

    I honestly think that this all comes from him being too thinned skinned. He has shown a tendency to take criticism very personally and lash out and those criticizing. Part of me thinks that he has connected himself as President to the flag and national anthem and wonders if he feels personally insulted by those who do not stand to honor the flag (and thus don't stand to honor him). Of course, his actions have had the opposite affect and has driven more athletes to not stand.

    Again, my honest feeling is that people should be allowed to peacefully protest something provided it does not hurt others...and that includes does not affect them doing their job. Despite what some people think...this protest is not negatively impacting their job performance. Although I am personally disheartened by this...I believe in the freedoms outlined by our Constitutions and think that any restriction of those freedoms undermines what this country stands for. Therefore, I think they should be allowed to protest.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  3. Taliasen

    Taliasen Collecting Rickey Henderson and Sean Casey. Moderator

    I agree with you 100%. People have a right to protest what ever they want. I will argue FOR their rights just as I would expect them to argue FOR my right of feeling that their actions are disrespectful. My choice, my opinion, my freedom.

    This may not flow perfectly, but here are some excerpts/thoughts of an ongoing civil conversation I have currently having with someone...

    It is called standing up and being the better/bigger person. Giving/showing respect even if the other person really does not deserve it shows maturity, grace, taking the high road, and treating others how you would like to be treated. (which is something I feel Trump is incapable of doing btw)

    Actually grace is giving (or not giving something) to someone that they rightfully deserve. Like a family forgiving a drunk driver who killed their child and asking the judge for leniency on behalf of the accused. The accused may deserve a harsher penalty for exercising their freedom to drink and drive, but the family offers forgiveness and grace. Whatever you choose to believe because of your freedoms, I choose to believe that I was born a sinner and that nothing I could do could change and redeem me from that. As a sinner I deserved to be separated for God forever. God showed me grace and offered me forgiveness even though I did not deserve it.

    I am not judging. I do respect their views and beliefs. I actually support and defend everyone's rights and freedoms to choose what they want to do. You do not want to wear a seat-belt? Don't. Do not want to stand for the National Anthem? Don't have to. Don't want to wear pants to work today? Use illegal drugs? That is your freedom to choose so. I am exercising my freedom to choose to be polite, respectful, follow societal norms, obey public safety laws and stand for the National Anthem, because that is my freedom and right. Just as I support and defend others' rights NOT to stand. I do not think that t is unfair to expect others' to support and defend my rights TO stand. It is also my freedom to think there may be more effective ways to peacefully protest one's beliefs. Mad at the government, fine. Protest against the government, not against someone who deafened your rights to do so. It is also my freedom to think that it is rude and impolite to not show respect to the service personnel who may be on the field directly in front you, exercising their rights to salute and carry the flag, whom you have never met and those individuals and they have never disrespected you. That would be like me flipping off the road construction worker who installed the speed limit sign because I feel that the speed limit oppresses me.
     
  4. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD Insert Cool Title Moderator

    I completely agree with you...and I to would hope that they would support my right to stand. I'd like to think that many would.

    Honestly, the biggest issue I have had with this whole thing since the beginning was hearing the Colin Keapernick did not vote last year. To me, that totally undermined his argument of trying at affect change. His one real chance to cast his official opinion...and he elected not to. I know a single vote doesn't go very far...but when you are trying to be a symbol of a movement then you need to do it.

    While my heart would like to agree with you and say that the action of not standing has been an inappropriate method of protest for their cause...my eyes and ears tell me otherwise. By selecting such an action that peacefully has created such a loud and visible response...they are getting people talking about it. Perhaps not talking about exactly the right thing...but they are talking nonetheless. Talking leads to change.
     
  5. Taliasen

    Taliasen Collecting Rickey Henderson and Sean Casey. Moderator

    Honestly, the biggest issue I have had with this whole thing since the beginning was hearing the Colin Keapernick did not vote last year. To me, that totally undermined his argument of trying at affect change. His one real chance to cast his official opinion...and he elected not to.

    +100 for this!
     
  6. NickJ

    NickJ Member

    I think the anthem protests are fine. It's for an important social cause and it's not like guys are chatting it up or hitting on cheerleaders while the anthem is being played or sung. They're simply kneeling in silence as a protest.
     
  7. ranbethscards

    ranbethscards NASCAR products are back baby!!!!! oh yeah! Moderator

    ... an important social cause? are you joking? the "new" kneelers have no idea why "Special K" started it. Over the last week it was amazing how many different answers were given on ESPN when asked. One of my favorite answers was "in support of the police men's rights". The rights of the police are slowly being taken away, but that's NOT why the original kneeling began. And NO! I am not supporting Special K's reasoning.

    Now, with that said...

    RETIRED VETERAN... served my time... would do it again. If you want to kneel that is your right, but instead of whining about your rights... why not pick up the gun... march along side those that are currently serving to protect your right.

    ...and as far as the silent protest argument... come on man... they are getting paid millions to act like cry babies because their feelings are hurt, but don't care that the REAL MEN are wearing a Military Uniform and getting shot at while making a mere $20K a year.

    Before anyone replies... I would highly suggest you put on the uniform first. If you have never been handed, or handed, a folded flag at a funeral, you can never understand.
     
    Taliasen likes this.
  8. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD Insert Cool Title Moderator

    It is obvious that the extreme uptick in this type of protest that we saw a week ago was totally unrelated to the original protest by Kaepernick last year. His "message" has clearly been lost and I think this is more of an angry response to what the President said (well, Tweeted) than any actual "cause."

    Because of that, I suspect we will see it die down in the short term due to the President's tendency to get bored with a Twitter battle and find a different one (I'm looking at you Puerto Rico).
     
  9. NickJ

    NickJ Member





    Not all cops are bad, obviously. But at the end of the day the bad ones need to be called out and dealt with by their bosses to protect the reputations of the good ones. All of these cover ups, filing false reports, blatant lying to protect their own, etc.... is just hurting the 'promise to serve and protect' argument.
     
  10. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD Insert Cool Title Moderator

    There are bad people in all lines of work. That's life. You are correct, they need to be dealt with. But, many of these inner cities where these problems are occurring have a history of very severe violence and other issues. Now, that's not an excuse or a blank check for the police to be extra violent...but it does make sense why police forces are more jumpy in those areas. I think things like this are two fold. Yes, there are racist cops and that is a problem that needs to be addressed. But, these communities need to improve themselves too. It's not just the police.
     
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