Discussion in 'Baseball Card Talk' started by johnnyboy1999, Jul 4, 2013.

  1. johnnyboy1999

    johnnyboy1999 New Member

    Is it wrong to still respect baseball players who you know have used performance enhancing drugs. I still respect guys like Bonds, Mcguire and Sosa despite their scandals because i still believe in my heart of hearts that those guys were still great players regardless. Obviously some of these guys numbers are inflated, but if you take away some of the numbers these players have gotten sans the steroids, you would still have some solid numbers, especially for Bonds.
  2. athletictypist

    athletictypist New Member

    Steroids don't have anything to do with hand eye coordination. People always want to talk about the purity of baseball but fail to bring up baseballs past. Guys like Ty Cobb wore spikes on their cleats, so his stolen base total is most likely inflated. You've had huge game fixing scandals and of course segregation of players for a large portion of its existence. Cheating is nothing new in the sport.
    pojokers likes this.
  3. IQless1

    IQless1 Active Member

    In the past, money wasn't as big of an issue as it is today. Money is a major factor in the angst about steroids. The better the performance, the better the pay.

    But money isn't the only issue with steroids, and other substances that artificially increase a players abilities. For players who play by the rules, it's offensive to them that someone's skills are enhanced by steroids.

    On this point, I think of it in terms of "purists" versus everyone else. But, to be fair, there really aren't that many purists out there today, that are successful anyway. They may play a few years, but usually end up in the minors, etc. They see other players who do use steroids still playing, and that riles them.

    For fans, there's basically two opposing view-points. One is that steroids are an unfair advantage, the other is that steroids are common, and should be allowed. The latter lost the argument, so anyone using steroids now is in a lot of trouble with the league...after like three violations, if I remember right lol

    For me it's a case of, "It is what it is." There's no real way to verify past claims of usage, except when some skinny guy bulks up in a hurry, and his stats improve sharply. The problem there is with natural growth versus artificial, as it's sometime difficult to say with a great degree of certainty. Either way, it's something that occurred, and can't be "unoccurred', so what it's done is sow confusion in how to address the impacts.

    Personally, I'm fine with leaving the stats as they are, but I'd like an asterisk added to anyone's name who is either suspected or confirmed to have been using steroids, since it does affect their performance. One asterisk for this, two for that., etc.

    The funny thing is how long they let this go on. I remember people in my area using them in the early 80's, and they were just kids bulking up for highschool sports! The worry back then was "roid-rage"...but I knew one guy, a body-builder, who was anything but raging...he was positively the effects aren't always the same for everyone.

    The reason it's funny is because it was an open-secret for decades. Teams allowed it, because better performances meant higher ticket-sales and better cash-flow to the teams. Today, the leagues frown on it, but they benefited greatly from it, so in that sense they're biting the hands that feed 'em.

    Bottom-line: It is what it is, and it can't be undone. In truth, most people love the enhancements in play, the home-runs, the touchdowns, the we've all supported it's use in the past, in one way or another.

    That's changed, as the anti-steroid movement won the battle...but who knows, someday it might be the reverse. If steroids were allowed again, assuming people changed their minds and wanted it, stats would go up, attendance would improve, cash-flow would increase...but right now it's a stigma, people don't know what to think.
    pojokers likes this.
  4. SEA81

    SEA81 New Member

    For me it kind of ruins the purity of the game. Then again, so does all the commercialism associated with it these days. I now know that some of my favorite players from back in the day used illegal substances, but I try to remember the good memories rather than the bead. Admittedly, though, it has me not wanting to watch the game I once loved anymore.
  5. IQless1

    IQless1 Active Member

    I don't know about purity ever really being a part of the game. As long as there's been baseball, there's been baseball players who spit on balls, used resin, corked-bats, took bribes, etc.

    It's expected that baseball players are gonna cheat, it's par-for-the-course.

    Wait, that's a golf reference, but what the heck, I'll roll with it.

    A Tiger Woods joke about the repercussions of cheating:

    "She throws like a girl...a girl throwing a golf-club at a car."
  6. bluejaysfan

    bluejaysfan New Member

    I think there's a difference between regular cheating, and turning yourself into a superman with PEDs. People like to talk about how steroids don't improve hand eye coordination, but it definitely drives up your batting average when grounders turn into line drives and fly outs turn into home runs. You can take the corked bat out of a player's hands and make him play with a regulation one, but you can't scale his strength back down to his natural level.
    IQless1 likes this.
  7. bigteeth96

    bigteeth96 Member

    I still venerate some of them; the ones that didn't lie endlessly until hitting a wall of shame. It ruins the great past time, but they still made a great impact while nobody knew. It is like the Simpsons episode with Jebidiah Simpson actually being bad, but Lisa won't prove it to the town just because ignorance is bliss.
  8. Lex92404

    Lex92404 New Member

    Steroids and baseball have always been a tough subject. Like one poster said, steroids don't improve hand-eye coordination, but they obviously did something beneficial otherwise they would not have been used. The only problem I have with it is that many believe that athletes are role models, and that children should look up to them. Although I don't subscribe to that belief, I can't look up to someone I don't personally know. However, I can respect the work that it takes to hone any talent to a professional level, and these athletes worked and were talented with out the use of drugs also.
  9. thechubbygod

    thechubbygod New Member

    Even a player that uses steroids needs practice. Taking steroids doesn't magically make you the ultimate player but what it does is allow an inflated home run statistic. I still respect those who take steroids because those players still require a high level of skill.
  10. rcg2222

    rcg2222 New Member

    I don't believe in the use of steroids but I think even steroid using legends have some value. Like chubbygod said, you still have to practice and know what to do with all of that strength. Plus, this isn't like football where you need a lot of body strength. More hand-eye coordination than anything.
  11. pojokers

    pojokers Member

    Very well said, this is how I've always viewed it. There's unfair stuff that goes on in every sport but I feel we shouldn't knock those who have been caught. All of the pro leagues take the best players in the country, so it's impossible to say steroids are why they're great. I'll have to admit that game fixing is the only truly despicable thing. Unfortunately segregation stemmed mainly from ignorance and backwards thinking, not hoping to increase your chances of winning. Either way like you said "cheating is nothing new to the sport" and I still respect these players.
  12. jayne

    jayne Member

    Yeah, cheating and baseball. They go hand in hand and it's unfortunate but true. Heck if you went to most workplaces these days and could be a fly on the wall, you'd find cheating going on in the workplace too. So, who are we to judge? The way I view it is I'm gullible and always expect honesty from people, even co-workers, and 9 times out of 10 I am soooo disappointed when I find out that people lied cheated or stole to get where they are. At least in baseball they have hefty contracts (money on the line), are excellent athletes and a super competitive spirit, so while it's not ideal at least it explains some of it.
    IQless1 likes this.
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